Comments on: Thoughts on Gaza

By: Small Blue Thing

Small Blue Thing — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 12:56:47 +0000

O comeon! I guess you haven’t read Glucksmann lately.

If I feel I MUST reject Al Qaeda’s latest “communication” in public, in order not to be called a fanatic terrorist, shouldn’t you people say STOP to the termination?

If nobody values your own life, if your fate is living without water, work, schools, no passport, no identity, no rights, would you valuate yourself?

This is not about being jewish or muslim or israeli or arab either. This crap is about what makes us humans.

Anyway. I guees I’ve already won my “antisemite” tag and nobody here will ever read this.

By: Jesse Cohn

Jesse Cohn — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 03:14:48 +0000

Hey Dan– there’s no “reply” button under your last post (Jan 6/1:28 AM), but briefly: Fair enough. Israelis who are first and foremost scared and angry are not likely to respond to the particular arguments I’m making, and appealing to their rational self-interest is at least likelier to succeed (though scared and angry people are not usually all that great at calculating what is in their rational self-interest — which is one more reason why the U.S. is likelier to be the agency here). But the compulsion to strike back, to return vengeance for vengeance yet again, is not evidence of Israel’s political strength; it is reactive, not active, and it produces the discourse of helplessness rather than power (“What else could we do?”). That’s what I mean by saying that while Israel is relatively stronger than Palestine, it is still fatally weak — much the worse for the Palestinians.

Horrible paradoxes.

–Jesse.

By: Small Blue Thing

Small Blue Thing — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:54:50 +0000

Left is not silent _we are with the victims of decades of blockade, opression, tortures, and now massacre.

Wish all of us refuse you, as it would be easier for you, guys. But this is not the truth.

Just open your eyes, and bring your soldiers home safe. Collapse the wall, sign in the International Convention against Children Soldiers and the IC against Tortures (1996)… or if you cannot, just vote.

If you’re about call me antisemite and blablabla, why nobody here has spoken about last 16 refuseniks?

By: shaul

shaul — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 02:54:42 +0000

and i can say that i am dedicated to working within my people to grow the space for acknowledging the other side. But I can’t argue to make space for a culture of shaheedim…. Even the Jewish extremists don’t take on death wishes.. There is a little nekuda tova (good point) in a terrorist who values their OWN life, and something a little extra scary about one who doesn’t.

By: shaul

shaul — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 02:50:24 +0000

its’ not really gonna sound right to just say that “israel makes mistakes.” Everybody with open eyes knows that. Israel makes mistakes in its TRYING to deal with a rather daunting enemy. Some governments with more force, some with less etc.
but there is no excuse for not standing out against Hamas’ sacrificing Palestinians for a PR victory. dan said it- but if there is a war crime going on- in addition to sending rockets into civilian population center for now 8 years running- ESPECIALLY after Israel’s pulling out of Gaza…. But there is something radically disturbing about firng out of schools, or bringing mothers and children into ones strategic command… And why is the left silent?
I know the critiques of Israel are real, many and deep on our consciounce. But there is no progress being made in this conflict without somebody really addressing and not ignoring the ideological world that Hamas lives in. Without understanding what a “culture of martyrdom” means and thinking realistically about dealing with it- all the critique on Israel would be better off phrased in some form of constructive criticism for facing an impossible challenge.
The strategy of not hitting back is hard to keep from just being seen as weakness over here in the middle east- Don’t delude ourselves about who we Jews and Muslims or maybe rather Israelis and Palestinians are- we are not intellectual philosophizers, we are people whose families are being killed and feel threatened in our land. We both believe our dead are headed to a better place– I know for Judaism that this world is seen as holy and perhaps more worth Living for than dying from. I hope the voice in Islam that honors life over death, this world as much as the next will prevail and there will be here two religions believing in doing the work of fixing ourselves and relating to each other. As an Israeli, I can say my people have come many steps forward in having accepted a Palestinian narrative- how do we deal with an ideology that violently refuses us?

By: moshe

moshe — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 02:39:34 +0000

Dan dan— this is a good healthy discusstion. Let us pray for the welfare of our brothers and sisters in arms. Too many thoughts..

By: Mobius

Mobius — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:38:08 +0000

I agree wholeheartedly that Israel is in a greater position to advance peace and that out of stiffneckedness and haughtiness they have squandered one opportunity after another to bring about a resolution to the conflict. And I agree that the United States has not been a responsible actor, and that the policies of the U.S. towards Israel and Palestine are misguided, unjust and need to change.

I also absolutely believe that by pursuing meaningful negotiations and reaching lasting agreements that Israel will go far greater ways in preventing rocket fire than in bombing targets in densely populated neighborhoods.

But I don’t believe that Israel should be required to stand still as hundreds of rockets rain down on its cities because it’s supposed to be “the bigger man.” No “man” anywhere is that “big.”

In Israel’s eyes, it cannot strategically afford to appear weak lest it wishes to embolden greater force against it. And in light of the present situation in the greater Middle East and the status of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a chess piece in the broader conflict between Sunni, Shia & the West, I find it difficult to argue with that assumption, as undesirable as the results of its ensuing policies are.

I actually think there are “better,” less noble, romantic or humanitarian reasons for Israel not to respond to provocations from Gaza in the manner in which it does. Strategically speaking, the Palestinian liberation movement appears to be succeeding in portraying Israel as the ultimate force of evil in the world (if not successfully in North America, pretty much everywhere else). This perception has led to very undesirable outcomes for Israel: The lionization of Israel’s enemies as defenders of justice and the ever greater demonization and isolation of Israel. I believe this downward trend may ultimately result in a successful divestment and sanctions campaign against the country. By attacking Gaza, I believe Israel is playing right into it.

I’m not saying that that’s why I’m against Israel’s siege on Gaza. I’m just saying, you’ll get much farther in convincing Israel to refrain from attacking within civilian areas with that line of reasoning than you will with appeals concerning either the suffering of Palestinian innocents or “the responsibility of the greater power.”

By: Mobius

Mobius — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 04:44:07 +0000

Beirut + Geneva + a 20 year truce, with incentives for sticking to and real penalties for violating the pact, sounds like a plan to me.

By: Aaron Freeman

Aaron Freeman — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:39:20 +0000

Hamas and many Israelis, including Pres. Shamir believe previous PA agreements, like Oslo, have not benefited the Palestinian people. Settlements have expanded, land has been seized, the wall has gone Palestinian democracy has been undermined and don’t even talk about Hebron. Oslo and Annapolis and the Road Map have failed. Is it really hard to understand why Hamas ignores them just like the US and Israel do?

If tomorrow Hamas swore on a stack of Korans, “We accept Israel’s right to exist!” who would believe them? On the other hand if they said, “We despise Israel and Jews and Americans too but, in exchange for implementation of the Beirut Accords, we will not attack any Israeli targets for twenty years and we’ll enforce the agreement within our community.” The events of the past five months give us solid, historical reasons to trust that they would.

One who makes tough, specific deals and honors them is my definition of a partner, in peace or anything else.

By: Small Blue Thing

Small Blue Thing — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:13:28 +0000

Sorry. I do see a difference. 3000 thousand people dead and dying under combat cars.

I do see a wall of shame and poverty.

I do see tortures in supposedly democratical prisons.

I do see a supported-by-elections Government erased by a foreign force.

I do see refuzeniks arrested, violated, prived of their freedom to choose peace.

And I wonder what do you see and what you don’t and will never see. What for having have a Palestinian State? To forget them the hell ever _as czecks did with Slovakians? Why not a federal solution with free, equal citizens?

My protest is not against jews, nor even israelis. My protest is against an Army which conculcates International Laws every single day. Not the only one? That’s a lame of thought.